Talk:Angevin kings of England/Archive 1

Archive 1

[Untitled]

How can the Angevins be the same thing as the Plantaganets-any more than than the Plantaganets were the same as the Yorkists. Yes, all Plataganets but it doesn't make them the same thing. -Adrian

I strongly agree. Angevin and Plantagenet are clearly NOT the same subject. Plantagenet is most notable in that it refers to an English royal dynasty descended from a single individual. These should be separate articles.

• Well, as far as I remember, Plantagenets is a nickname for the Angevin Kings and I've never heard of it applied to Yorkist and Lancastrian branches, if you did please point it out. Matthieu 17:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• As a matter of fact, Geoffrey Plantagenet (emphasis intended), the father of Henry II of England, was a member of the House of Ingelgar, the forbear of the Counts of Anjou. He married into the English royal family, by marrying Matilda, amidst her dispute over succession with her cousin, Stephen of Blois. Hence it is safe to say, the House of Plantagenet- the descendants of Henry II -were agnatically members of the House of Ingelgar, also called the first House of Anjou, as they ruled over Anjou. Its the same thing as saying that the Bourbons were agnatically belonging to the House of Capet. Nirvaan 20:50, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Descendents of Edward IV and Henry VII

What sort of social rank would one have to bear in their family, in order to be a descendent of either?

How far up the totem pole, would you say?

This is intended to have broad answers and based on gradients of time and population, not going into specifics about exact descendents. About how common is their descent in the English or British genepool today?

I've noticed that American Presidents don't descend from either king, but the most common recent royal ancestor shared by many of us is Edward III. How common is it for anybody in the English or British genepool, to have a Protestant royal ancestor?

There is a general cutoff, isn't there?

Is it because of fratricide in the Wars of the Roses, the Tudors' "new men", or the Union of the Crowns, or the parliamentary union under Queen Anne (I can't think of any non-royal family descent from the Hanoverians within the UK)?

I'm thinking that there is a big difference between Plantagenet and Tudor descents, that the commons in all likelihood have the former and the latter is held by the lords. (just generally speaking) Then again, Tudor descent in the Welsh must be higher in general. I am further curious about pre-Royal Tudor blood in Anglo-British people today, since the status and/or concept of Welsh royalty/nobility is rather hazy in my mind. I found the Blevins aka Ap Bleddyn family of Powys in my ancestry, but have no real idea on what to make of it--or any other Welsh "native aristocracy". I might be able to find Stewart descent somewhere, from way back when. What percentage of Hanoverian background do you think that German colonists had in America?

On the British side, I have to go as far back as Welf himself...but any recent genetic relationship with the Hanoverians or the counts of Nassau are completely obscure. How does one research those other colonial people, such as the Hessians?

UK genealogy is relatively easy when focusing on English (and French) ancestries. What would a "national person" of Jerusalem (or Antioch, for example) in Crusader times be known as?

We say "American" for those Founders, but was there such a nationality-term for the Crusaders in their own domains?

I guess the term is supposed to be Levantine/Outremer, or "Crusader" as our national heritage says "Colonist"...

IP Address 12:01, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

vowels

I changed "[ˈæn.dʒə.vən]" to "[ˈæn.dʒɛ.vɪn]". If your dialect reduces unstressed vowels to a uniform schwa, no harm done, you'll pronounce it the same either way. —Tamfang 21:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Looks like Aeusoes1 wasn't convinced by that argument, or perhaps has a stronger argument supporting schwa. I turned to my dictionaries. In French it's /ãʒəvẽ/, but one English dictionary (Webster's New International 2d ed.) shows the same vowel for the middle syllable as in the first syllable of event. —Tamfang 04:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

While on the subject of pronounciation, I'd much appreciate it if somebody could add the IPA for Plantagenet. --Turbothy 19:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Anjou and Angers

I added in the very first part of the article that it refers to the resident of Anjou and Angers. Which was missing.

the arms

Somewhere (possibly only in French Wikipédie) there is a chart of the coats of arms used by Capetian cadets, but I can't remember what it's called. That's where I'd look for the arms of the first house of Anjou (kings of Naples). —Tamfang 17:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Archive 1

Descendents of Edward IV and Henry VII

What sort of social rank would one have to bear in their family, in order to be a descendent of either?

How far up the totem pole, would you say?

This is intended to have broad answers and based on gradients of time and population, not going into specifics about exact descendents. About how common is their descent in the English or British genepool today?

I've noticed that American Presidents don't descend from either king, but the most common recent royal ancestor shared by many of us is Edward III. How common is it for anybody in the English or British genepool, to have a Protestant royal ancestor?

There is a general cutoff, isn't there?

Is it because of fratricide in the Wars of the Roses, the Tudors' "new men", or the Union of the Crowns, or the parliamentary union under Queen Anne (I can't think of any non-royal family descent from the Hanoverians within the UK)?

I'm thinking that there is a big difference between Plantagenet and Tudor descents, that the commons in all likelihood have the former and the latter is held by the lords. (just generally speaking) Then again, Tudor descent in the Welsh must be higher in general. I am further curious about pre-Royal Tudor blood in Anglo-British people today, since the status and/or concept of Welsh royalty/nobility is rather hazy in my mind. I found the Blevins aka Ap Bleddyn family of Powys in my ancestry, but have no real idea on what to make of it--or any other Welsh "native aristocracy". I might be able to find Stewart descent somewhere, from way back when. What percentage of Hanoverian background do you think that German colonists had in America?

On the British side, I have to go as far back as Welf himself...but any recent genetic relationship with the Hanoverians or the counts of Nassau are completely obscure. How does one research those other colonial people, such as the Hessians?

UK genealogy is relatively easy when focusing on English (and French) ancestries. What would a "national person" of Jerusalem (or Antioch, for example) in Crusader times be known as?

We say "American" for those Founders, but was there such a nationality-term for the Crusaders in their own domains?

I guess the term is supposed to be Levantine/Outremer, or "Crusader" as our national heritage says "Colonist"...

IP Address 12:01, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

vowels

I changed "[ˈæn.dʒə.vən]" to "[ˈæn.dʒɛ.vɪn]". If your dialect reduces unstressed vowels to a uniform schwa, no harm done, you'll pronounce it the same either way. —Tamfang 21:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Looks like Aeusoes1 wasn't convinced by that argument, or perhaps has a stronger argument supporting schwa. I turned to my dictionaries. In French it's /ãʒəvẽ/, but one English dictionary (Webster's New International 2d ed.) shows the same vowel for the middle syllable as in the first syllable of event. —Tamfang 04:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

While on the subject of pronounciation, I'd much appreciate it if somebody could add the IPA for Plantagenet.--Turbothy 19:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

the arms

Somewhere (possibly only in French Wikipédie) there is a chart of the coats of arms used by Capetian cadets, but I can't remember what it's called. That's where I'd look for the arms of the first house of Anjou (kings of Naples). —Tamfang 17:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Opening comment

How can the Angevins be the same thing as the Plantaganets-any more than than the Plantaganets were the same as the Yorkists. Yes, all Plataganets but it doesn't make them the same thing. -Adrian

I strongly agree. Angevin and Plantagenet are clearly NOT the same subject. Plantagenet is most notable in that it refers to an English royal dynasty descended from a single individual. These should be separate articles.

• Well, as far as I remember, Plantagenets is a nickname for the Angevin Kings and I've never heard of it applied to Yorkist and Lancastrian branches, if you did please point it out. Matthieu 17:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• As a matter of fact, Geoffrey Plantagenet (emphasis intended), the father of Henry II of England, was a member of the House of Ingelgar, the forbear of the Counts of Anjou. He married into the English royal family, by marrying Matilda, amidst her dispute over succession with her cousin, Stephen of Blois. Hence it is safe to say, the House of Plantagenet- the descendants of Henry II -were agnatically members of the House of Ingelgar, also called the first House of Anjou, as they ruled over Anjou. Its the same thing as saying that theBourbons were agnatically belonging to the House of Capet. Nirvaan 20:50, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Category:House of Anjou vs. Category:Capetian dynasty vs. Category:Capetian House of Anjou

Category:Capetian House of Anjou is itself a category within Category:Capetian dynasty and Category:House of Anjou. — Robert Greer (talk) 14:11, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

House of Chateaudun?

This is a neologism - no historians call them this. Further this attempt to recast the page creates a conflict, the intro claiming a different origin than the History section, which spends a good bit of time talking about people rendered irrelevant by the change of focus. I realize you were trying to get around two houses of Anjou, but this is not the solution. Agricolae (talk)

This came up before: User_talk:Stijn_Calle/2007#Chateaudun. Is it necessary to even have articles on the different families who held the County of Anjou? We already have articles on the Plantagenets, the Capetians, and the Valois. What we really need is an article on the County of Anjou, not just a list of counts and dukes. —Srnec (talk) 21:49, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Two separate questions really: do we need a page for the family, separate from those for their holdings; and what do we call it. I suspect that there has been enough written about the clan that they could merit a page. Certainly, though, not as it now appears. We don't want a page that tries to be both family and title, when the two did not overlap. As to the whole "House of ______" construct, I find it an artificial one, not used by historians or scholars in English, except in a small number of exceptional cases, and it sounds more like the name of a pretentious antique shop than a family. I haven't done an actual survey, but my impression would be that by far the most common name for this family in the period prior to their acquisition of royal titles, is the Angevins, just as people call their scions the Plantagenets, not the House of Plantagenet. Still, the argument is out there that every family should be referred to the same way, and if we call one family the "House of _____" then we should refer to all of them that way. I think it was Ralph Waldo Emerson who commented that foolish consistency was the hobgoblin of Wikipedia editors. Still I have neither the time nor the motivation for a full-scale renaming debate right now, so I will be happy for the time being to address this particular abomination on its own. Agricolae (talk) 05:05, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree entirely. I lost a battle over at Talk:House of Hohenstaufen a couple years back. I am opening a move request to Angevins, and we'll see what others bring to the table. —Srnec (talk) 02:51, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Aervanath (talk) 12:16, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

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House of Châteaudun → Angevins — See previous section. It is the more widely used term in medieval scholarship. Currently redirects to House of Anjou, a dab page. This page was previously moved without discussion. —Srnec (talk) 02:51, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Support See above. Current name is a neologism unique to Wikipedia. Google search shows current title to only be used by Wikipedia mirrors and irrelevant sources. Google Books shows only one occurrence, and none in Google Scholar. Agricolae (talk) 13:58, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Support per UCN. Flamarande (talk) 21:32, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Support per both. Johnbod (talk) 13:01, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Casatus refers to Paolo Casati which is clearly not the case. Someone who knows its meaning should either write a new article or explain the term inside this one. Or, well, substitute it with another word. --Oop (talk) 13:16, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Anjou and Angers

I added in the very first part of the article that it refers to the resident of Anjou and Angers. Which was missing.

• Undated comment above several years old so probably obsolete Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:08, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Grammar

Some of the grammar used here makes the story hard to follow. Too many pronouns, in some cases, refer to ambiguous antecedents and cause the outcome to be ambiguous. I can't edit because I can't deduce the real intent at times. Someone who knows the history here should review and edit for clarity.

• Undated comment above several years old so probably obsolete Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:08, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk: Angevin kings of England/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sotakeit (talk · contribs) 08:26, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Comments by Sotakeit

Generally, it is well written and complies 'with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation'. However, there are several glaring grammar iissues throughout, mainly to do with comma use (see here): * The line When the male line of Ingelger became extinct in 1060 cognatic descent continued in 'Origins' section - I would suggest a comma after '1060' to separate the two clauses.

• The line Territorial ambitions to expand the Angevin holdings prompted power struggles with neighbouring provinces such as Normandy and Brittany leading to influence extending into Maine and Touraine in 'Origins' section - Again, I would suggest a comma between 'Brittany' and 'leading'.
• The line Matilda's father Henry I of England named her as heir to his large holdings in what are now France and England. in the 'Angevin arrival in England' section - I would suggest commas either side of Henry I of England, as has been done in the previous section (Fulk married his son and heir, Geoffrey, to Henry's daughter and only surviving).
• Henry saw an opportunity to re-establish what he saw as his rights over the Church in England by reasserting the privileges held by Henry I when Theobald, Archbishop of Canterbury, died, by appointing his friend, Thomas Becket to the post - There could be confusion because of the wording here as to whether the friend was Henry II's or Henry I's. I would suggest rewording to When Theobald, Archbishop of Canterbury died, by appointing his friend, Thomas Becket, to the post, Henry II saw an opportunity to re-establish what he saw as his rights over the church, as held by Henry I.
• When Dermot died in 1171 Strongbow, as his son-in-law, seized significant territory. This line needs a comma after 1171.
• Richard the Duchy of Aquitaine; Geoffrey Brittany - There needs to be commas after both Richard and Geoffrey, as at the moment it looks like they are Aquitaine and Brittany.
• Richard and Philip II of France took advantage of a sickening Henry II with more success - I understand what is meant by 'sickening' here, but I would use 'sickly' or add a clause such as '...advantage of Henry II, whose health was worsening, with more success...'.
• The line Quickly putting the affairs of the Angevin Empire in order he departed on Crusade to the Middle East in early 1190. in the section 'Angevin decline' - Again, a comma after Empire.

I think the content is broad in its coverage, whilst staying on point. However, there are points where I think some explanation would be useful:

• 'Custody was passed to Henry the Lion and a tax of 25% of movables and income was required to pay the ransom of 100,000 marks, with a promise of 50,000 more.' - A tax on whom?
• 'When Arthur's forces threatened his mother, John won a significant victory, capturing the entire rebel leadership at the Battle of Mirebeau.' - Whose mother? John's or Arthur's

• In the 'Historiography' section, there are several phrases such as 'He was a bad king' and he was no Englishman' that have no place here unless caveated with 'Some think...' etc., and then followed by a relevant reference.

It generally seems well referenced, with a good range of sources used. I would raise a couple of small issues:

• The whole second paragraph of the 'Angevin decline' section has only one reference, but makes several seemingly separate points. More references need to be added, especially after 'But, on his return to England, Richard forgave John and re-established his control.'.
• What is reference number 81 meant to be referencing? The whole section? If so, I think that this is unnecessary and should be attached to the actual points in the section rather than the whole.
• I think 'Current head: Extinct' in the infobox needs a reference.

On the whole, besides the minor grammar points, there don't seem to be a great deal of issues and they can certainly be easily fixed. I would give conditional support if these changes are met. Sotakeit (talk) 08:26, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

* I have looked at the Grammer points and think I have covered all of them. What do you think? Will look at the references in that paragraph tomorrow - thx Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:16, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Great. Very interesting article - especially the Legacy section. Once the referencing points have been looked at I'd be happy to give my full support. Sotakeit (talk) 12:23, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

** I think I've covered the ref questions, what do you think? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:11, 25 June

2014 (UTC)

Looking good. Great article. Well referenced. Well written. Broad in its coverage. Well illustrated. Support. Sotakeit (talk) 09:38, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

• Can this now be passed? Thanks....Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:43, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Sorry! :p pass. All updated, just waiting for the bot to get around to updating the article page. Sotakeit (talk) 08:58, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Duplicate Image

I was curious about why this image appears twice in the article?

One of only four surviving exemplifications

Kyle^(talk) 19:56, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

• Simple mistake on my part when moving text about, really. Duplicate removed. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:39, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Article Improvement

This article has been improved and expanded using content from the following articles:

• House of Plantagenet‎
• Henry II of England
• Richard I of England
• John, King of England

Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:53, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Move from Angevins

As has been suggested in the A class article review I have renamed the page to what was suggested as more appropriate. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:44, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

What is the point of having articles on the Angevin kings, the Plantagenet dynasty and the Angevin empire, as well as on all the individual kings? It seems redundant. Srnec (talk) 00:24, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Well that is Wikipedia really and you could also include the House of York and Lancaster articles—the point is it is the only way to achieve consensus on a number of issues. All the dynasty articles have a number of common challenges and the Plantagenet's have their own issues. Principally these are:

• Personalisation—challenge in history articles to separate the personal information from the historical context to write a true biography i.e. what the kings did rather than what happened during their reigns.
• Periodisation—the identification of distinct periods of history. Dynastys have been used to identify a period—for instance before Sabrebd edited separated out the historical information from the House of Plantagenet article it was really a history of the late middle ages from an historical perspective.
• Historiography—many terms have been used but are now discounted by modern thinking e.g. Angevin Empire reads like a matter of fact but is largely considered never to have existed in a meaningful sense.
• Definition—there is no consensus on what the House of Plantagenet consists of e.g. from Henry II to Richard III, or to Richard II, or from Henry III, Angevins, Plantagenet, York or Lancaster.

For what it is worth this article covers a family during a distinct period of history from the first French king of England to the loss of the historic ties to the French homeland and the beginning of England as a state. This is wider than the action of individual kings but dependent on the personal foibles of the family members. If you have an answer to these questions you are a better man than me! Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:23, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

It always struck me that this article was (or at least should have been, considering it was quite malnourished!) the place to discuss the Angevins and the 1st rulers of Anjou proper, to discuss the of the Frankish house that started with Ingelger through all the Fulks and Geoffreys to the cessation of the family's control of Anjou under John/Henry III. That would have included the overlap with the Plantagenet article at the end, but with a more of an Angevin (as in "of the region of Anjou" and its sphere of influence) focus. Its now taken a completely different direction, just to slot into the myriad of articles of the English kings, which as Norfolk points out, already duplicate each other with the many phases of House Plantagenet. I can't help feel that I can't help feel that a great opportunity was missed with the rewrite (well written though it is), but at least the page move allows for the future return of an article actually discussing the Angevins themselves rather than the Angevins-in-relation-to-England.

My biggest problem with it all is the "House of Ingelger" article that took mainstage as the new pre-Henry II Angevin article; maybe its from French academia, but I've never seen "House of Ingelger" used in English secondary sources, only "Angevins", "House of Anjou" and "the counts of Anjou" or variations therein for the family from Ingelger to Geoffrey Plantagenet w/son and grandsons. -- Sabre (talk) 17:50, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Just to complicate matters it seems like Les Ingelgériens is in fairly common french usage for the Counts of Anjou but predominantly only prior to 1060 when the first house of Anjou is considered to end.Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:26, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Across in French Wikipedia there is an article on the Ingelerians.193.109.254.25 (talk) 16:06, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

References

End of era

Given the new tags, I note that Bartlett uses 1225 to end his England under the Norman and Angevin kings: 1075-1225. Norgate used 1206 for her England Under the Angevin Kings Green, A History of the English People goes with 1201. The Britannica Education Publishing's The United Kingdom: England says that some historians apply the name to Henry II and his 13 successors, while others use it for just three kings, Henry, Richard and John, "and for want of a better name" call their successors Plantagenets. We are definitely too definitive in claiming that the period of Louis' invasion of England is the date historians use for the Angevin era's end. Agricolae (talk) 13:56, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Russian translation

Hi there. These days I've translated the article into Russian. Immediately a was kicked around and the translation was nominated for deletion. The core of disagreement is: a) Angevin kings are simply another name for Plantagenets and as such do not deserve separate article; b) Angevin kings of England are a separate historical entity and the article is valid.

Where actually had Angevins ended and Plantagenets started, if ever? Pls advise. From Russia with love. Ashec (talk) 12:55, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Ashec, Angevin literally means from Anjou, and is used for the the Angevin kings because they were also counts of Anjou. Anjou was lost by King John to the French in the early 13th century so it is common practice to consider his son, Henry III, the first Plantagenet monarch. Plantagenet wasn't actually used at all until Richard of York in the 15th century, but it has been applied retrospectively. English WP also has articles for Plantagent branches such as the House of Lancaster (Henry IV, Henry V and Henry VI) and House of York (Edward IV, Edward V and Richard III). All of them are actually the same family, the House of Plantagenet article covers it all well. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:53, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Also, sometimes different communities of historians divide things up differently. If it is typical for Russian-language historians to group all of the kings from Henry II to Richard III into a single grouping (or even to Richard II, then York and Lancaster) then that is the grouping that should probably be followed on Russian Wikipedia, independent of how it is covered on English Wikipedia - they need not be sliced and diced into smaller pieces the same way if there are different historiographic traditions in the two language communities. From an English perspective the loss of most of the French lands by John is an important point of division, but as seen from a Russian perspective where there were not infrequent gains and losses, it may not be seen as a notable division point. Agricolae (talk) 22:41, 30 March 2021 (UTC)